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  • .Joel Pansh A15 Review

    By .Joel

    By far Pansh's best built kite to date offering a lot of new features. 

    Positives
    Stable & Predictable
    Incredibly Powerful
    Excellent Value For Money
    Negatives / Considerations
    Turning Speed
    Narrow Pulley Line
    Blow Out Valves Unconvincing

    Pansh’s latest closed cell depower foil is called the A15, this is a multi-sport kite aimed at Land, Water and Snow Kiting.  Originally the Pansh A15 was released as a 15M kite, it’s now available as a 9M, 12M and 18M and additionally in custom colours.  This review is focused on the A15 15M in Standard Colours.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-000-kite.thumb.jpg

     

    Kite Bag
    Pansh supplies two bags with this kite, the original Grey & White bag is what it comes shipped in.  The Blue kite bag is for after you’ve opened the kite and flown it, due to its increased size makes packing the kite away a much easier task.  I quite like the simplicity of these Pansh bags, and people travelling with their kite gear will love them as they’re super light but add that layer between your kite and other gear in your travel bag.  

    pansh_a15_kite_review-001-bag.thumb.jpg.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-002-bag_large.thum

     

    Profile
    The profile of the kite is a Mid-High Aspect Closed Cell with a curved trailing edge adding slightly more depth to the profile ending in squared/straight wingtips.  The total cell count for the 15M is 33, once inflated the kite is quite thick between the top and lower skin holding a large volume of air.  Once in flight there is quite a pronounced arc from wingtip to wingtip.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-003-profile.thumb.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-004-profile.thumb.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-005-profile.thumb.

     

    Bridle
    Pansh’s bridle work has improved dramatically over the years, the A15 is their next step in moving forward with some new additional features.  First of all the bridle itself is fully sewn and sleeved, reducing knots and tangles when laying it out. The tabs on the A15 are re-enforced by distributing the tab inside the kite to spread the load point.  Between the tab and the bridle are their new “bridle knots” which are identical to Flysurfer’s LCL’s (Little Connection Lines).  These are generally a lower-spec dyneema of around 30kg to 45kg each so that if you snag your kite or overload part of it on an object they will break away before tearing the tabs out of the kite’s sail.  Their pulleys seem adequate, however their new UHMWPE braided lines through the pulleys is a little on the thin side.  I have no doubt the load of the line is adequate however the reduction in line diameter may lead to the line wearing a rut in to the pulley much quicker.  A slightly thicker line would distribute the load over more area reducing pulley wear. The line connectors on our test kite came with metal rings, however Pansh have updated this and are now using “ELC’s” or more commonly known to those familiar with Flysurfer kites “Easy Line Connectors.”

    pansh_a15_kite_review-006-bridle.thumb.j

    pansh_a15_kite_review-007-bridle_lcl.thu

    pansh_a15_kite_review-008-bridle_depower

    pansh_a15_kite_review-009-bridle_pulley.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-010-line_attachmen

    pansh_a15_kite_review-010-line_attachmen

     

    Sail Features
    The gaphics of the sail itself look stunning in the sky, it’s a really nice pattern.  Pansh also offer a range of alternative custom colour examples, or you can choose your own combination of colours.  Presently this is free for Bronze members and above, otherwise there’s an additional fee for standard memberships.  

    pansh_a15_kite_review-026-colours.thumb.

    It’s beyond the sail colours that things get rather interesting, the kite itself has 5 vent intakes and utilises Pansh’s new “DAIS” system which is their “Dual-way Alternate Inflation System.”  The concept behind this is to split the air intake to two, an upper and lower intake on the same position of the kite.  As a kite changes angle of attack the angle of the air intake changes, by splitting the air intake to an upper and lower they change the pressure of the air being fed in to the sail via the air intake.  It’s effectively like driving with your car window down and sticking your hand out, as you change the angle of your hand you feel more or less pressure push against you. In its very basic form it’s the same concept they’re applying to the air intake.  

    pansh_a15_kite_review-015-inflate.thumb.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-016-inflate.thumb.

    Pansh have now included a velcro opening in the middle of the trailing edge which is used for “drainage and dirt-outs” to allow sand and water to escape the middle of the kite.  They then have the standard dirt-outs on the wingtips of the kite for drainage and dirt.  Now interestingly to the left and right of the middle dirt-out there are two “blow-off” valves, or as I prefer to call them “blow-out” valves.  These are magnetic and sewn in to the trailing edge and do add some weight to the trailing edge.  One thing I did notice in flight that the centre of the trailing edge was never uniform and smooth like the rest of the trailing edge.  The “blow-out” valves seemed to induce a slight deformity, overall personally I don’t like the design and positioning of the “blow off” valves.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-012-trailing_edge_

    pansh_a15_kite_review-013-trailing_edge_

    pansh_a15_kite_review-020-dirt_outs.thum

    Moving away from the centre of the trailing edge and looking at all the cells along the trailing edge there’s another improvement, and not done with the acronyms yet it’s called “DCTE” or “Double Cell Trailing Edge.”  They’ve take the full cell width, and split it directly in the middle sewing in an additional piece of material giving the trailing edge twice as many cells as the leading edge.  The result being in the air with exception to where the blow-off valves are located the rest of the trailing edge looks like on of the most uniform and cleanest trailing edges i’ve seen on a closed-cell kite.  It seems to hold its trailing edge shape incredibly well.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-011-trailing_edge.

    Just in case you thought there weren’t enough openings, there’s also a huge zipper on the back of the kite which for packing up is excellent.  I found it was easier to pack this kite tightly than my other closed cells due to the size and position of the zipper all the air flowed out as you rolled it up.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-014-zipper.thumb.j

    The kite is internally built really well, with folded and sewn edges where usually they would be hot-knife cut and fray over time.  However they continually use some material to re-enforce parts of their kite, I'm not sure what it is however I've seen it before on the Pansh AceII in "gold."  On the A15 it's frequent in White.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-019-internals.thum

    pansh_a15_kite_review-017-internals.thum

    pansh_a15_kite_review-018-internals_funk

     

    Finally now that we’ve gone through a glossary of new acronyms that Pansh has introduced with this kite we move to its spectacular flying characteristics.  

    Low Winds
    I initially setup the lines and took it out in about 4 to 5 knots of wind, it was a slight morning breeze where I saw the opportunity to setup the kite in light wind in anticipation of the afternoon breeze coming through.  After setting up the lines I had the kite directly down wind of me, gave a few tugs on the front lines to pop up the leading edge and the kite started to inflate slowly.  At about 30% inflation I gave another pull and got the kite just off the ground, it then started to climb slowly as I walked backwards and after about 10meters of walking and swooping the kite left to right it was inflated.  The kite sat at 12 o’clock in the window and was stable, moved it to the left and right of the window and again stable at the edges.  I didn’t do much more however I could feel it was quite grunty.

    Moderate Winds
    Over the rest of the trip we had decent afternoon winds so on the beach in about 10 knots of wind I setup the kite, giving the kite a tug it immediately took off and started to inflate.  With less than half the kite inflated I had ample control to bring the kite up and move it around instantly fully inflating it.  Immediately I could feel the kite had noticeably more power than in the morning, however with more wind it seemed even more stable.  It literally sat in the window like it was anchored to that position whether that was above me or to the edges of the window.

    In the Kite Buggy I had a straw hat on as I didn’t imagine I’d be doing much in the way of speed with this kite.  However once I was moving and the apparent wind kicked in it instantly delivered an incredible amount of power for its size.  It literally sat at the edge of the window and just pulled like a tractor, there was no stalling, no falling backwards and jumping forwards, it just pulled consistently.  Soon I realised on the slightly down-wind run as the wind increased slightly I was moving over 50km/h and thinking to myself “excellent choice on the straw hat for protection.”  On the downwind run I never felt it a struggle to keep the kite in the window.  

    Going back up wind with the kite it pointed well and again continued to haul me back up the beach.  As the afternoon went on the wind did shift and blow more down the beach, this meant working the kite more and at the very end required me to tack a few times back up the beach.  It didn’t have the upwind reach of a full race kite such as the Peter Lynn Vapor, however I didn’t feel at any point it offered less upwind reach than my old Speed3.  Overall it was consistent both in upwind and downwind performance.  

    The kite is incredibly grunty and pushing hard against the kite didn’t invoke it to surge to the edge of the window then stall, it literally just steadily kept hauling the buggy.

    Turning however on the A15 is not as quick as the Speed3, there’s certainly a noticeable initial delay in initiating the turn before it starts to increase in responsiveness.  I also feel that my old Speed 3 had a greater range of depower on the bar throw, whilst the A15 offers an exceptional amount of depower I feel the old Speed 3 and especially the Speed 4 offered far more depower on the bar throw before requiring you to adjust the trim strap.

    pansh_a15_kite_review-021-kite_flying.th

    pansh_a15_kite_review-022-kite_flying.th

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    pansh_a15_kite_review-025-kite_flying.th

    Conclusion
    Overall I am very impressed with the build quality and flight of the kite.  I think this is by far Pansh’s best built kite to date offering a lot of new features inspired by other manufacturers and also offering a number of new features inspired by their own research, design and implementation.  Pansh is clearly looking at the competition now and raising the standard of their kites to fit in amongst them.  In flight I felt I could trust the kite completely, it was stable, well behaved and predictable.  There was plenty of power when I wanted it and ample depower.  The kite itself not only represents great value for money, however removing the price point that attracts many people to Pansh I can confidently say even with a higher price tag it would still represent a great purchase.  It’s not only a kite that makes people’s first entry to closed cell kites a great choice, for those with much older closed cell kites that are starting to deteriorate it offers a good update path.  In a word, impressed.

     



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    User Feedback




    andy666

    Posted

    The brake strap can go either over or under the front lines, it won't make a difference.

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    Pari

    Posted

    7 hours ago, Fernando said:

    @PariNot sure if it's the way you've intended to use the bar, but the break line, shouldn't that be behind the lines and not in front facing you?

    And was the full price you paid including the bar & lines? Did you go for the longer lines or the shorter ones?

     

    Do you mean the strap you pull to land the kite?

    If so then yes I put it on top, works good for me. I find I can let the chicken loop of the harness, drop the bar down so it is hanging free and just hold the strap to land the kite. If it was on top the bar would be in the way when landing the kite.

    I bought the 22m lines and I got the 65cm bar as they didn't have the 60 that I originally ordered so they gave me the 65cm at the same price. I'm glad i got the longer bar, as the kite does turn quite slow on very lite wind days it's nice to have that extra yanking length.

    All up $749 AU, a bargain and worth every penny.

    Been out in 8 knots having a fun ol' time and in higher winds done some nice jumps. I like the way inflates really quick and I never get that issue I use to get a lot with the Speed 3 of the wing tips getting caught on the launch. It goes up wind great. Superb kite.

    9 hours ago, andy666 said:

    @Kiter_from_Germany

    @Pari, flysurfer (and most other manufacturers) put some elastic inside the dyneema of the safety line to create a bungee section in the line to take up the slack. Much like your safety leash would have. 

    The bar mod look good.

    Ah yes, I remember now the bungee 5th line on the FS. I have to do something with my Pansh 5th line, it really bugs me as it gets in the way...way to long, arrrrg.

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    9 hours ago, andy666 said:

    @Kiter_from_Germany the bar looks great. Replaced the questionable parts with quality gear and have created a brilliant bar for a fraction of the cost.

    @Pari, flysurfer (and most other manufacturers) put some elastic inside the dyneema of the safety line to create a bungee section in the line to take up the slack. Much like your safety leash would have. 

    Thanks Andy,

    "creation" is a thankful word, just by putting things together :o).

    But indeed North Depower System should work great with pansh. I even  didn't need to splice lines!

    The length relation is so, that pansh and north compared, the North depower system is about 10cm shorter than pansh's.

    Due to the fact that I usually like more throw in the bar to have additional depower safty during gusts, I think, this should work.

    Just disconnected the pansh bar system at the red trim line and looped it at the depower gear of north (->you see the result at the photo of bar).

    Detaching the Depower system of pansh is done by loosening one screw at the quick release system.

    For fiddeling the north depower lines through the bar, you need some north specific tool . Dont try to open the North quick release System without this tool, you will break the swivel and loose the complete quick release system.

     

    This Saturday I will go on water with it, and report you back some results...

    BOLT3TOOL.png

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    Hi,

    yesterday I was in the water with pansh A15/18m.

    Due to our weather in winter the days when we have unter 15kn are not so often.

    But yesterday all was fine.

    To describe my first flight result, the summary is:  

    Flight characteristics: HORRIBLE!

    Long story short:

    * Depower: Horrible

    * Turning: Horrible

    * Reverse Start: Possible for me (you must grip the steering lines a good m (1,20) from your body, than it is (good) possible.

    Due to this long distance to the gripping point, you must stand to acceive this 1,2m, if you are swimming, I think, your lost. My armlength is about ,80m and I'm big. You must regrip on both sides, with the pressure of wind against with the kite face down on the water. Needs at least a VERY good technique.

    * Landing reverse: Works

    * Landing assisted: Doesnt work - funny!
    Interesting behavior: Going down on the side of the wind window at around 15degrees or 5m above the ground the kites low side collapses  to the inner side (the lower edge turbulances and starts to flip to the inner side of the kite).So you have to abort downflying otherwise you will tangle everything.
    I helped myself to fly a powered downarc to its parking position to make it possible for my landing help to grip the underliek at all - Not to recommend, because helpers get really nervous - or you will rim the kite into the ground!

    My conclusion so far: Kite handcrafts are VERY NICE, the line system seems so be NOT APPROPRIATE.

    In flight I could recognise that the mixer system (is very narrow together) and the kite hangs completely in Lines A to C no tension on Z.

    Z (which is not in the mixer (- pulley - ) system, the mixer is just connected to it) is not prestressed at all. Z is hanging loose between the mixer joint to its connection points at the kite an is not in use in depowered situations. Indeed you need half of the bar throw to prestress the Z lines at all (during this B and C are working - they go even further down before backliek follows at all (activated through Z).  I assume Z works to late in the downpull proccess, which leads to bad wing profile and bad flight performance. So this will result in bad depower and steering capabilities, and this - with a upward oriented backliek, will even lead to a collapsing the kite at a edge of wind window.

    Without further testing, I think the upper Z lines are about 20cm (?)  too short.
    But  take this as an impression by flying, I have to test this in a seperate session (after three hours standing in 3degrees cold water I was not able to go deeper into this :o)))

    This Z line issue would explain the strange behavior of at least MY kite - mustn't be a general error.  

    A seconed guy in germany indeed reports collapsing in the windwindow edge.

    Perhaps we should think a little about this.

    I have to fiddle out in next days, weather I find "my correct" Z line length and will report. Perhaps performance will improve for me.

    After all pansh nanes this a prototype and I ordered a scaled up 18m version. by scaling everything up, perhaps pansh scaled Z line length, too, which may not be completly right for the best setup of an 18m kite or so...

    I hope this is the reason for the strange behavior of the kite, because it would be the easyest way to correct a misalignment and I hope to improve my kite by just looking at Z (and later the mixer relations).

     

     

    panshZLine.png

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    Northern Kites Australia

    Posted

    Interesting about the Z line. My Pansh Aurora 12m does the same thing. But I did not find the kite handling an issue at the edge of the wind window. I do however get the kite suddenly falling out of the sky if I pull both the front and rear lines, like when I bend down to pick up my board. The Aurora did it twice to me the other day and I found that by shortening the Z line about 5 cm did the trick. Good pick up @Kiter_from_Germany

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted (edited)

    Hi, Fernando,

    yes, after sleeping a night, I gonna setup a test procedure for the A/B/C/Z lines. The mail challange is that - although it is a problem with the relation A/Z and mixer lines - it is not enough to make a "mixer test" a la flysurfer. I did it, it is ok, based on the theory that mixer connection points of pansh is designed as FS does.

    Unfortunately pansh answers no questions never, so we have to solve our problems alone. Sad and strange, because pansh's build quality is great!

    Here is the mixer test:

    A15_mixertest.thumb.JPG.3a4bd327a2f2437c

    At the top you see both A/Z Lines and underneath you see the B/Cs.

    Looks fine, no accidental error, I would say.

    Between them, A/Z and B/C are 7,5cm, which is plausible to me, because future shrinking of the mixer pulley lines will reduce it (to zero?).

    This B/C - longer - side would be arodynamically save, but on my pansh it is still about 20cm to short which is aerodymamically REALLY bad, because this works against the profile of the kite, resulting in loosing the aerodynamical grip and leading to the noticed behavior. Short B/C (->to short) the complete load von B/C and Z  hanging loose....

    Very strange.

    My intent is a test procedure:

    Flying with a temporary varied shortend Z (I will check A, too in this teststo get proper relations of all). Based on the results I will probably calculate the wright pigtails which I splice over the mixer system (bottom right in picture) between mixer and B/C line start.  

     Unfortunately I am not able to produkce a proper video of flight last sunday, because the action cam lens lens got foggy (-> 3degrees celsius... :o) and film is not usable.

    This weekend I hopfully find the right wind to check and will report (and foto) results.

    By the way: The review pics from Joel showed a little week Z line, too. Mine was at least double loose than that, but there could be room for improvement at Joels A15/15m, too?

     

    Edited by Kiter_from_Germany
    typo

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    .Joel

    Posted

    On 28 February 2016 at 7:11 PM, Kiter_from_Germany said:

    Interesting behavior: Going down on the side of the wind window at around 15degrees or 5m above the ground the kites low side collapses  to the inner side (the lower edge turbulances and starts to flip to the inner side of the kite).So you have to abort downflying otherwise you will tangle everything.

    My Speed3 12M, 19M all did exactly the same thing if you dived them, especially kiteboarding and bringing them within 2M or so of the water on your initial dive.  Non-Issue, I suggest you learn to keep slight pressure on the bar when parking the kite at the very edge of the window.
     

    8 minutes ago, Kiter_from_Germany said:

    By the way, The review pics from Joel showed a week Z line, too. Mine was at least double loose than that, but there could be room for improvement at Joels A15/15m, too?

    Which photo, circle it and post it.

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    1 hour ago, .Joel said:

    My Speed3 12M, 19M all did exactly the same thing if you dived them, especially kiteboarding and bringing them within 2M or so of the water on your initial dive.  Non-Issue, I suggest you learn to keep slight pressure on the bar when parking the kite at the very edge of the window.
     

    Which photo, circle it and post it.

    Hi Joel,

    sorry for mentioning you without stating forum like. From my work I sometimes can't prepare answers as they should be.

    Thanks for your question, because in preparing the answer I foud my test procedure for this weekend.

    I was thinking about "what the right Z- tension" is, and now I think I know what to check, thank you!

    Lets go into the photo, I'm referring to this:

    Pansh_ZLine.png.de348155557a08555b52200d

     

    When I was on the water I saw the same behavior (even more "loosenes") on "Z" in a DEPOWERED Situation.

    (I'm assuming, this photo was made when the kite was not powered up, is it so?)

     

    Lets go thinking. Kite and Mixer Design follows some rules:

    Conventional.png.b3efa5e5d73f2cf88a15bff

    By pulling "Z", "C" WILL FOLLOW by half of length, and "B" will follow by a quarter of length. Everything is turning around "A".

     

    But what will happen, when "Z" is loose ("Z" is the line above the mixer)?

    If you are powering at the bar, "C" is pulled of course. But "Z" will lag behind, because i has to be pretensioned first:

    Pansh_Z_uncorrect.thumb.png.ec1d17c9441d

    This is bad, because we are loosing our wing profile / aerodynamic.

     

    What do I try to do this weekend?

    I go on a grassland and check the lines in depowered mode.

    I try to shorten "Z" to get (slightly the same) tension than "C",  by checking the bending arc of the two lines in the air!

    Exiting will be how the power generation and turning reactivity will develop (hopefully they do ... but they should :o).

    From a theoretical point of view there should be clearly improvements in agility through this mod.

    But if you waht to check by yourself, take care: Before shortening "Z" you should have increased your depower reserves (same more depower reserves in your trimming system as you shortend "Z", eg 10cm extra way) because you put kite more in the airflow!

    So think of depower the new setup and start your observations from there.

    For all the guys outside:

    This is the just the examination part. I'm just going into that, understanding how pansh works. We have to examine, because we have no documentation.

    Line "A" indeed has principally the same problems (but usually you dont see). to make a correct fix after the described "Z" Line examination, we have to calculate a little, get back to the original length of "Z" and prepare the right pigtails for "B" and "C" lines.

    Pansh_Z_correct.png

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    .Joel

    Posted

    6 minutes ago, Kiter_from_Germany said:

    Hi Joel,

    sorry for mentioning you without stating forum like. From my work I sometimes can't prepare answers as they should be.

    No apologies required, constructive and challenging discussion is always welcome here! :good: 

     

     

    6 minutes ago, Kiter_from_Germany said:

    Lets go into the photo, I'm referring to this:

    Pansh_ZLine.png.de348155557a08555b52200d

    True the Z-Line in that photo may be loose, but once you start moving and inducing drag on the bridles tolerances change.  Similar to the brake lines on many fixed bridle kites that dominate their flight off the front lines, you find the rear lines whilst being very slack offer more than ample responsiveness.

    However, I accept your theory on it so seeing as tomorrow we are going away for 4 days kiting I'll make some adjustments and test your ideas on shortening the Z-Bridle ;)  Can't hurt to experiment :good: 

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    Oh, Fxxxxk I'm jealous!
    4 Days kiting (-> I assume you have more than 3degrees celsicus)

    :o)))

    My way is apline skiing from 9th on, at least!

    Have a nice trip!

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    Just for the guys who want to tweak what we discussed.

    Here is what I would suggest:

    Get your kite in the air at the top of wind window, nice depowered trimmed flight.

    Now pull the bar in and look at Z Line.

    Z-Trick2.png.e1044527eda7bdf8fa1099324b3

    You will notice, that Z tensens and due to this, moves more towards "C" (marked in Positions 1,2,3).

    We need to get the point on the bar, where this approach process - line to line - (nearly) stops. In Theory C should be bend half of Z, because we need to find the point where C tension is double of Z (Position 3 in the picture looks good) 

    (Beware: "Z" will not be in parallel to "C" at this moment because of wind effects. "C" holds double tension in relation to "Z" at this moment because of mixer design!)

    Now we measure the bar throw:

    L.png.5b3d83f3357ddfe1c00b812bbe1e2be0.p

    Lets name it "L"

    The trick is,  to shorten the Z line "L/2" due to the fact that we need to refer to the relation between "Z" and "C", not bar throw, because ot the influence of the mixer.

    Now its easy task: I suggest a shorten Z with a knot (L/4 back and L/4 forth = L/2):

    L4.thumb.jpg.da945bcad5ca80102f597803459

    This should do the trick.

    IMG_2834.thumb.JPG.8a856e901a1e8acce8cfc

     

    But CAUTION:

    The Kite needs approximately L/2 more depower after this fix.

    You should be prepared that you need approx L/2 more depower trim after the fix.

    Before your next start you MUST adjust your static trim!

    (...or wind is so low, that it doesn't matter :o)

      

     

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    Hello together - I must say after fiddeling around for 4hrs or so, I must say: The above trick does NOT work (Nevertheless lazy Z is responsible for week steering performance).

    On Sunday I was out from 3-8kn, ideal weather for first fiddelings.

    I met a collegue, also owning a pansh A15 in 15m, regular colors.

    Going through the Z line approach, I measured it, shortened Z as described and - the Kite was stalling at the edges!

    Supprise, but I learned: What works horizontally mustn't work in a different angle!

    Thinking a little, there is a obvious reason for that: Bringing A,B,C and Z next to each other, at the edge of the wing, length differences get more and more cirital. So, A,B,C,Z are very low toleranced in relation of Line Length (within less than an inch or so, I think ). By shortening Z profile at the edges was bend and stalled.

    Next I tried to shorten the Z lines by 4 inch as shown in the picture:

    Pansh_Lines_tweak.png.815d8b36aa70f6999d

    Agility of the kite improved (Indeed I shortened z5 also, but I didn't recognize, that they were organized in a tree like shown in lineplan. I would bed, that they are organized in pairs like z1/z2 and z3/z4 also. I have to check, next week... )

    My collegue tried the mod by himself and got a good feeling at 15m pansh A15, too.

    The tweak is very easy, because the lines can be (dis)connected via a single loop to the LCLs.

    The downside of the tweek were not the flight characteristics, you just see  that the fabrics of the Kite at achterliek are bent a little due to the tweak.

    Not a problem, but my first intent was to think that an error in line design would cause weak performance. But line length seems to match to the kite design:
    The problem relates more  to the wind blowing at the Backlines creating a bow. The steering pulse is not inducted "purely" into the Z bridles, most of it "is used" to prestrech Z first. 

    Next thinking is about that: How can we avoid this big bow in Z lines without loading the backliek too much? (the backliek itself is very easy bendable so it can't stand much force) 

    Next possibilities to tweak are three:

    * Getting a supertech 0,5mm line for all the Z stuff to reduce line diameter and though the wind resistance (lot of work to splice 28lines :o(  )

    * Forget the Z bow and work with a pulley bar to implement a 2:1 gear ratio to implement a gear between bar throw and line pull (who wants to get 2:1 Bars, but a quick tweak)

    * implement other tricks (stabilizing lines between Z and C or so...

    I will go into that, so I can just state: Stay tuened!

    As I can say now there is no easy fix at this moment.
    But definately there is one...

     

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    socommk233

    Posted

    interesting to see issues on the a15. its like they started all over again.

    my aurora has needed modifications to work, to make the depower work and to stop it tucking.

    I know its essentially a different kite but its a pansh with the same or similar speed system. I can post more about the mods if you like? though its all on the Pansh fb page. basically ive made it work, however yet to try in its new trim in a decent wind. 

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    socommk233

    Posted

    the diagram used is not quite right. or maybe im missing the point? the break line (from bar) pulls directly on the c lines first then as it gets to the powerd up position then the lines to the trailing edge tension to add break.

     

    hmmm.PNG

    its more like this.....

    dis.PNG

     

    maybe its the understanding of the working of the speed system or ive misunderstood the previous posts?

     

    the trailing edge break lines are not needed for the aerofoil shape ,the kite would fly fine without them, the cell design itself keeps that in check. the rear lines just break the aerofoil and create extra drag for increased turning responce

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    On ‎10‎.‎03‎.‎2016 at 6:47 PM, socommk233 said:

    dis.PNG

     

    maybe its the understanding of the working of the speed system or

    Hi, socommk233,

    thanks for your interest.

    Indeed I drew a schematic, just showing connection points and pulley positions, though showing how the mixer gear works.

    Refferring to that, both drawings should show the same (assuming that your connection with C line (the peak) is connected via pulley).

    In Reality while flying the kite, looking at the loaded lines of course the mixer falls together (more or less completely under the fallline of B and spreads from there.

    C should always be engagued through a 2:1 gear.

    If it is Not so in the Aurora Mixer, let me know.

    Thanks

     

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    (Pretty) Good News (for me and all the guys who are a little unhappy with the flight performance).

    I Think I found a major thing it is the mixer:

    Look at my old post where I found this:

    A15_mixertest.thumb.JPG.3a4bd327a2f2437c

    remarkably B and C are 7,5cm longer Than A and Z.

    I now tried to keep in mind that mixer gear works different, so I put a pigtail (additional 7,5cm) in C line to get the right gear ratio (-> mixer design).

     

    Mixer_Pigtail.png.ce089d8f1a19883a42e718

    (pls recognize that usually A/Z are better aligned than shown in the pic, in reality all knots match together, as shown in first foto, i was a little lazy when making this, seconed foto :o)

    After that procedure you can prestress (shorten) steering lines for about 30cm without stalling the kite even fully powered!

    The result is:

    Turning is much better, now.

    Power generation is much better now
    and is within the range of a bar throw (no stall when pulled max at the top of windwindow, static flight.)

    Only drawback is the windwindow landing thing (lowside of the kite flips at edge of wind window while assisted landing) which was behavior of my kite before this action, too...

    I have to fiddle a little more... but stay tuned...

     

    Kite

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    borist

    Posted

    this is interesting. So you made C 7,5cm longer and Z 30 shorter? Did you shorten Z above the speed system (mixer) closer to kite? I'm trying to visualize it what this does.  I have 9m and 12m I'd like to improve

     

    pansh_mod_1.jpg

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    4 hours ago, Fernando said:

    Not sure if it was asked in this thread, but is the bar you're using @Kiter_from_Germany, have all lines equal length when attached to a fixed point (pole, fence, etc)?
     

    Yes, they do. Connected via a fence front and back lines are alligend very well now (fully powered bar, depower trim in position fully powered, as shown in the video (nice video :o) ).

    Z line indeed is totally missaligend - according to this test -, because the upper ECL is way too high against the kite  for about 3m - in total length of safety line it matches pretty well again.

    OK, just a design criteria from pansh, no flight relevance in that as long as Z is long enough, but I like that check of all filve lines from my north 5th element bars.

    My (temporary) conclusion is to fiddle the line lengths, first.

    After finding the right length of all, so setup the right line lengths so, that regular test procedures work out correctly (Bar Test, Mixer Test) I will also insert trim loops to readjust mixer deviation in the future like Flysurfer does.

    I'm indeed wondering a little what's going on there, too. 

    Remarkable is, that, by extending the C line (B and C are now in a 2:1 relationship) and shorten backline for about 30cm, mixer test should be exactely right!

    (B is originally 7,5 cm to long
    C is originally 7,5 cm to long, I extended it for another 7,5 cm= 15cm)
    Backline Trim for about 30cm prestresses Z line and brings C 15cm down and B 7,5cm. A,B,C are leveled at this point)

    To answer your question in this flight mode Bar system is retrimmt from the bar test setup with backline a 30cm too short. This is the setup I use at the moment with a good reactivity, and power/depower feeling (at the moment the kite flighs - fully powerd trimm full power - in zenit very slowly still forward, no stalling in zenith)

    I would recommend to make the mixer test to all the pansh A15 fliers who are unhappy with flight performance.

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    On 23.3.2016 at 2:08 AM, borist said:

    this is interesting. So you made C 7,5cm longer and Z 30 shorter? Did you shorten Z above the speed system (mixer) closer to kite? I'm trying to visualize it what this does.  I have 9m and 12m I'd like to improve

     

     

    Hi,

    nice pic, this is what I did:Fixes.png

    the 7,5cm length of the pigtail results in the measurement of the B and C deviation, when performing a mixer test:

    A15_mixertest.JPG

    So If you whant to give this a try, measure the difference between the lines (in my case the distance between A and B was 7,5cm and between A and C it was 7,5cm also. Goal was to double the distance from "A to C" refferred to "A to B". If you find a similar mixer setup measure  just A->B (egg 5cm,  or so), A->C should be double at this point (egg.10cm  in total - means 5cm pigtail) of course...

    In this 5cm - example, I would expect a neccessary shortening of 20cm of the backlines.

     

    But: this all works just for me at the moment. If all the knots are at the same level at your kite your performance issue can have a different reason.

    Never forget - we are on an R&D Track here... :o) we have no docs from pansh how or what they designed for what sized A15!

     

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    Peyton

    Posted

    Very interesting scientific process to come up with a solution! I really enjoyed reading the whole thread.

    My only question is how do lay out the kite to determine the actual relation of the line lengths. Which connection points are you bringing together?

    thanks in advance to whoever can answer this. I've got my custom color A15 18m a few weeks ago and a stock color 12m on the way...

    image.jpeg

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    Jussi Kaijasilta

    Posted

    Hello,

    Thank you for great review. I decided to buy this kite thanks to this review.

    Ordered 12m version, with 25m lines, no bar (have peter lynn Navigator 4 line bar for this).

    Very light weight. Weight on website is 15m version. My 12m including bag and bridles was 2500gr. It is between FS speed 4 lotus (2300gr) and FS speed 5 (2700gr).

    Seems to be build ok. Stichwork is definitely not FS class, there are some loose lines here and there. But everything seem to be reinforced so this is hopefully mostly minor cosmetic thing.

    Conversion to 4 line kite:

    - It is easy to remove 5th line. There is no separate tabs for fifth line like in aurora. 5th line is connected to the center tabs on right side in my case.

    - I need to try my setup in low wind to confirm does it work with FDS and 4 lines.

    - There is absolutely no wind today :( Cant wait to try it out! I will report how it goes!

    edit 4.5.2016:

    - Still no wind. I connected my lines to my bar. Bridles seem quite long compared to my speed 3 15m. I am worried about YZ and AXY lines. They are not sheeted like in my FS speed. I have had to replace my pulley lines in FS speed so no sheet makes me worried how long they will last. They can be easily replaced though.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    andy666

    Posted

    No wind. The new kite curse strikes again ;) 

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    Kiter_from_Germany

    Posted

    Greetings to everyone.

    I finally tweaked my 18m pansh A15 with a 2:1 bar. 

    Now its very fine for me - even on the water in gusty winds ->

    Thank you all folks for beeing in discussion with me the last two month for fiddeling things out!

    See You at the spot!

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